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So the bronies are in an uproar (Warning: vitriol)

Journal Entry: Wed Aug 22, 2012, 12:07 PM
Full disclaimer: I like MLP:FiM. I have fancharacters. I have six MLP shirts (a 20% Cooler, an Equestria Girls, Dumb Fabric!, a Fluttershy "Yay", a Nightmare Moon, and a Doctor Whooves) and collect the toys -- brushable dolls? Blindbag ponies? 5" plushies? I got 'em. I love the show.

So there's been con drama going amongst the MLP:FiM fan community recently, and a lot of people are in an uproar about "NOT ALL BRONIES ARE LIKE THAT".

They're offended that they're not getting recognition for "not all being like that".

Know what I think?

You deserve to be offended.



If you are pitching fits about this... realize that whether the events of the con were "factual" or not? This happens in your fandom. People are being harassed, threatened, and physically assaulted. Racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia run rampant in the fandom. (Pro fucking tip: rape jokes are never, ever, ever funny.)
And yet, the only thing you whine about is NOT ALL BRONIES ARE LIKE THAT!!!!.

So basically, fuck you. You are saying that no, it doesn't matter that people are being assaulted, what you really need to recognize is that we're not all like that so don't pay attention to them.
The safety of all people in this fandom is more important than the internet being a hugbox for every cis white straight male.

You don't get a cookie because you didn't strangle someone at a con. You should be calling these fucks out, not whining about how you're not all like that. Because if that's what matters most to you?

You're one of them, and you are like that.

(Sorry, I just needed to vent this.)

  • Mood: Sarcastic
  • Listening to: Bentley Jones - 'STUTTA'
Add a Comment:
 
:iconcallmedoc:
CallMeDoc Featured By Owner Sep 21, 2012
You know, the rape jokes don't disgust me as much as the actual serious, sadistic content that gets made.
That these individuals get defended so much makes it look like there isn't much common sense left in the fandom anymore.
Reply
:iconmeowlaise:
Meowlaise Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2012
I have been in a lot of fandoms in my life, but MLP is probably the oldest one. It's been there to various degrees through most of my life. And I must admit I loved the first wave of bronies. They were clever, creative, friendly people. The kind of people you want in a fandom.

But recently, things have gotten so very bad that I don't even consider myself a fan any more. Being an MLP fan means having to deal with the worst scum of the internet on a daily basis. Racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, nazism, etc, and that's really just the tip of the iceberg. It's a never-ending list. I've never been part of a fandom where I've been subjected to one or more triggering slurs -every day-. (Actually, I've never been part of a fandom where that has happened at all...) No show, no matter how great, is worth that much grief.
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:iconcallmedoc:
CallMeDoc Featured By Owner Sep 21, 2012
>They were clever, creative, friendly people. The kind of people you want in a fandom.
Or so it seemed. Unfortunately, a good portion of the first wave turned out being part of the problem, they just held back for a few months. :(
Reply
:iconmeowlaise:
Meowlaise Featured By Owner Sep 25, 2012
As much as I want to disagree with you, as much as I want to believe that you're wrong...

... Yeah. You're probably right. (-_-) *Sigh* At the very least they should have taken a stance against what the fandom has become instead of choosing to ignore it. Or worse; deny that there's a problem to begin with. Or still worse, outright defend sites which are infamous for hate speech. (Equestria Daily's reaction to Ponibooru shutting down is a great example.)
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:iconcallmedoc:
CallMeDoc Featured By Owner Sep 25, 2012
They didn't choose to ignore. They actively screwed up. :(

Some of the drawfags and writefags from the first /co/ wave turned out pushing things downhill first.
That was the worse, I saw some of the most promising people I liked to talk to screwing up big time.
Just the other day, I found out an individual or two from the beginning, who I had given benefit of doubt (I wanted to, even if I never really trusted), went out the their way to get some trolling going, and had some seriously messed up stuff on their portfolio. Those were more of the types who requested (leeched) stuff.

As for ponibooru, even though I personally hated how it went downhill, I can see how some people defended it, since it was convenient for them and stuff. Sethisto probably checked there for some of his content, since the fandom got bigger than the /co/ MLP generals where he first got the material (also the generals were no place to get good stuff anymore. Browsing them was pretty much a chore, in my opinion.). And the owner of ponibooru was on the first wave too, I think.

It all looked so promising, it's hard to believe it all went downhill like it went. :(
Reply
:iconmeowlaise:
Meowlaise Featured By Owner Sep 26, 2012
Interesting. I'm afraid I don't know that much about it, though. Can you give some examples of what has been done?
I don't doubt you for a second, by the way... And I know I'm going to regret asking.
Reply
:iconcallmedoc:
CallMeDoc Featured By Owner Sep 26, 2012
Ah... I thought you were more familiar with the first wave. Considering you mentioned being in the fandom meant dealing with the worst scum, etc, I believe you're already kinda familiar with what's out there. Basically, at some point, looks like they decided instead of doing stuff in good fun, the point where you'd say "dude, not cool, time to stop" should be the starting point, eventually. Why, I have no damn clue.

There was one individual I used to hang out with some time ago, who along with me which used to bitch a lot about the screwed up fandom, for instance. We stopped hanging out by the end of 2011, which was a good thing. Well, last week I found out the crap we used to bitch about... pedophilia, rape, pics made for trolling fans of a character, etc? He actually went around doing/requesting/commissioning all that kind of crap. Combined, even. All the fandom cancer, rolled into one inconvenient disgusting package. He always sounded live a manipulative backstabber anyway, but for a while like I had said, I gave the benefit of the doubt.

Now, as for others... I've seen some that seemed weirded out by the porn, who turned out were lying all along, and really, became responsible for some of the most overdone porn jokes. Some who seemed nice and to care about the fans, but ended up dragging others down after they put their own name on the gutter. Some who started drawing nice stuff, went to porn (not that porn by itself is bad, in MY OPINION), then to increasingly screwed up porn (all the way swearing it was art, then when called out for more screwed up stuff, decided to wave them off as "silly doodles").

You see, you're asking me to sum up almost 2 years of that crap. I'm even avoiding details so you don't regret that much asking. I know we're complaining about some different stuff, but still... this fandom, seriously.
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:iconhazamaitsuru:
HazamaItsuru Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2012
You're operating on the assumption that because one says "we're not all like that" they obviously don't care. I do care, and if I ever met any of these people I'd give them a piece of my mind. But you know what? The majority of these stories are passed through the internet without more than a couple of people knowing who the perpetrator is. How does one admonish the anonymous?

There's also the issue of false reports. Most recently, the Everfree Northwest convention was host to this. People were quick to jump on the bandwagon and point fingers without digging for the truth. At least one of the most serious allegations was debunked as false, by the story's author no less.

In short, it bothers me that people treat "we're not all like that" as a dismissal. What some people do is terrible, yes, but no, we're not all like that. What you can do is stop giving these people attention on the internet. Without the attention, the majority of these problem fans are nothing. It's the people who actually try to hurt others that need to be brought into the spotlight and fought against.
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:iconflygonmaster66:
flygonmaster66 Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
THANK
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:iconhedgehodgemonster:
HedgehodgeMonster Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I don't even fucking know

I keep hearing different shit about these con stories and all I want to say is

TERRIBLE PEOPLE ARE TERRIBLE PEOPLE.

As in the fact that they're in X fandom(S) has no real reason to be anything but fucking irrelevant. I mean... why?


You can't stop them from considering themselves a fan of the show, can you? People can't really control other people being terrible except by making sure they face the consequences afterwards- and that's not really worth doing unless you KNOW they did the terrible thing

Which can be reasonably difficult since nobody is going to admit they made a sexist or transphobic or racist joke or a rape joke and if they're the sort to do that kind of thing it's gonna be hard to convince them they did anything wrong to begin with...


sorry, I'm just very confused, can you help?
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:iconneustrasbourg:
NeuStrasbourg Featured By Owner Aug 24, 2012
Warning, wall of text ahead. I've never talked about this before, so consider yourself my first victim.

"The safety of all people in this fandom is more important than the internet being a hugbox for every cis white straight male."

This right there. The idea of the community being taken over by a certain demographic of self-righteous buckheads who think they get to have "all the toys!!" while trampling on everyone else is genuinely pissing me off. Of course it's not just bronies, said demographic tends to be dominant in a lot of groups (including major religions). I bet there have been similar occurences on Star Treck conventions. When a fandom like this emerges, there is always the danger of over-enthousiastic fanatics with no respect for others. Not that I had any social competences or respect myself, but from the things I have heard and sometimes seen myself, the more extreme fellas appear like something I'd have to put a newspaper under when they come into my house (and my house is filthy).

It's just so sad. Because for a moment I really thought we had a good thing going here. It looked like it wouldn't go down the road of poisonous nerd-chauvinism. I mean, a show created for little girls that can be enjoyed by EVERYONE because it's just so awesome. Heterosexual men being able to explore a more feminine perspective, and feeling GOOD about it, proud about it, not weakened. And then they managed to make something like this fit their douchebaggery like a glove? MLP FiM turned into a new excuse for the same slimeballs to express their slimeballness? We had a fandom that was literally founded on open-mindedness, on the thrilling "Hey I can watch a show about cute-colored she-ponies!"-effect, and then they let it rot. So what are we to do now? Try to claim it back? Separatism? Civil war?

I came here via 'Sane My little pony fan', where they opted for saying "I'm not a brony". I really don't want to do that (and quite frankly , I don't want to be sane, either! I want to be INSANE about something, for once. There must be a way to be crazy without being a troll, engaged without being self-righteous and narrow-minded). It would be to admit that we failed. So the real question is, how do you make sure the fandom is not all about that? I mean, is it still possible to promote the original values of the fandom? "Live and let live" instead of "fart in other people's faces or worse and then cry that you're oppressed by social justice sally when someone calls you out on it"? To take a troll and tell them "Can you repeat that while looking Fluttershy in the eyes?", as a test for actual bronyhood? Or do you simply have to accept that a fandom - any fandom - will always belong to the trolls in it's core, because they are simply the ones spending the most resources on it?
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:icontruemefista:
TrueMefista Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I am with you,but rape jokes CAN be funny.ANYTHING can be funny,if you have a good sence of humour.
And before you ask,I have actual phobia of being raped.
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
But you haven't been raped. You don't get to decide whether it's funny or not.
Sorry, I don't believe that "jokes" about violating someone, denying their autonomy, and treating it like it's just all in good fun is funny. You have no way of knowing if someone you're talking to has been raped, and those "oh so funny" jokes, if you have a "Good sense of humor", can trigger someone the fuck out. They can make a person, whether they've been attacked or not, feel unsafe. When you tell a joke about raping someone, it says I think this is okay.
It's not okay and it's not funny. Ever.

If not thinking rape and abuse are funny means I have a bad sense of humor, then I wanna be the most humorless asshole on the planet.
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:iconoperation-villainous:
"You don't get to decide whether it's funny or not."

Actually, I do. There is no law that prohibits jokes or being able to laugh at them, much less because it might "offend" someone. If we restricted free speech to make sure people don't get offended over something, then no one would be able to say anything as someone is will always be offended by something.

There are plenty of rape victims that do joke about rape - does that make it okay because they happened to go through? One has to endure rape in order to be "allowed" to tell a joke or to laugh at one?

"When you tell a joke about raping someone, it says I think this is okay."

If jokes enables things, then being a comedian would be illegal.

"It's not okay and it's not funny. Ever."

To you it's never funny. I, however, find dark humor funny. That's what's glorious about having an opinion. And as someone else already said, jokes are not enabling anything and they are not stating that violence such as abuse and rape and murder are funny - the jokes are making light society's reaction to it and/or the thought processes of the criminals.

You are being utterly ridiculous.
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Dec 27, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Please, find me one rape victim who makes jokes about raping people being funny.

I hear a lot of people talk about these mysterious rape victims, but I have never once found one who does. Have I met rape victims who have joked about their rape as a coping mechanism? Yes. Are they allowed to? Certainly.

But are a bunch of fuckheads who think raping people is hilarious or the victim's fault allowed to make "joking" threats of rape towards people they disagree with?
no.

Because these jokes? They're not "lol rapists are terrible". They're "lol, raping people is funny". That's not the same as making fun of a societal problem, that's undermining it.
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:iconoperation-villainous:
"Please, find me one rape victim who makes jokes about raping people being funny."
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:iconboredman5:
Boredman5 Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2012
"When you tell a joke about raping someone, it says I think this is okay."

So I guess that any joke that involves violence says that I think violence is okay. Any joke about death means that I think murder is okay.

You're demonstrating a complete misunderstanding of what jokes actually are.
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:iconboredman5:
Boredman5 Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2012
Tip: Rape jokes aren't considered funny because people think rape itself is funny. It's because it's so horrible that it causes an extreme negative reaction. Humor is entirely based on defied expectations and irony. Shock humor gets its irony from the contrast between, for example, "joke" and "rape". People who find it funny aren't thinking "LOL RAPE IS FUNNY". They're thinking "Oh God, that's terrible and I wasn't expecting that." It's the setup as a joke and the bait-and-switch with a serious subject that causes people to find it funny.

TL;DR - Of course rape isn't funny. That's precisely WHY it's used as shock humor.
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:icontruemefista:
TrueMefista Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh.You are american.You will never get it.At all.You misunderstood half of what I said.I don't mean that EVERY rape/abuse joke is funny,you see?But,as I said,you are american,you just won't get it.
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:iconbarghestmon:
Barghestmon Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012
I'm not american and I don't think a brutal, life-destroying attack on a person is humorous in the slightest and I DO have a sense of humour. You are not painting yourself in a good light, here.
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:icontruemefista:
TrueMefista Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
As if I care.After being shunned for simply stating that I think that sexual deviations (including all that non-straight "sexualities") are psychic diseases and there MUST be a way to cure them,I no longer give a fuck about what "open-minded progressive" people think about me.
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:iconcon1287:
con1287 Featured By Owner Aug 24, 2012
LOLOLOLOL what the fuck is 'psychic disease' supposed to be? The proper term is mental illness and many of the psychological firms in most parts of the modern world all agree that something as homosexuality is not to be treated as a metnal illness and corrective therapy is not recommended to reverse the "problem" if there was ever even on to begin with.

You make me laugh, your disposition on American and homosexual people is pathetic and laughable at best because you're so ignorant.

As for your stupid comment on rape jokes, HOW ELSE IS ANYONE supposed to interpret it in a different way? You wrote it the way it was meant to be interpreted and there is no other way I can see it as besides the fact that I don't agree on what you're saying and no amount of funny a rape joke posesses is not funny to actual victims. Please, try not to be so ignorant.

And before you call me out, no I'm not American. :shithitsthefan:
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:icontruemefista:
TrueMefista Featured By Owner Aug 24, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I don't talk with you.I talk with stamp author.Depart,please.I had enough people shitdrooling on me here.
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:iconcon1287:
con1287 Featured By Owner Aug 25, 2012
lol so that's how you argue? Ignore? lol

GET MADDER NO LIFE
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:iconbarghestmon:
Barghestmon Featured By Owner Aug 25, 2012
This wasn't a stamp, LOL, it was a journal. Not only are you a homophobic bigot but you're thick as shit, too. you really WERE dropped on your head as a baby! :rofl:
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:iconatlanta-hammy:
Atlanta-Hammy Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
they are not 'diseases' they are genetic ;) might wanna check your science before you go bible hugging bigot on people.
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:iconbarghestmon:
Barghestmon Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012
then you're a close-minded bigot and deserve to be shunned for having such backwards thoughts, shouldn't you? ;)
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:icontruemefista:
TrueMefista Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
No,I am not.I am amased at how fast you people start calling someone "bigot" if he is not politcorrectness-brainwashed drone.
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:iconbarghestmon:
Barghestmon Featured By Owner Aug 23, 2012
you ARE a bigot. you're homophobic/intolerant/unnaccepting of things that aren't as wrong as you seem to think. You were obviously dropped on your head as a baby.
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(2 Replies)
:iconatlanta-hammy:
Atlanta-Hammy Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
RACISM.
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:icontruemefista:
TrueMefista Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
FACEPALM
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:iconatlanta-hammy:
Atlanta-Hammy Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Might wanna read your shit before posting next time :/
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:iconstarlow-ftw:
Starlow-FTW Featured By Owner Aug 24, 2012
How is hating Americans racism? :lol:
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:iconatlanta-hammy:
Atlanta-Hammy Featured By Owner Aug 24, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Think about it, if you say you hate Africans it's racism. Pretty much goes the same for any 'county' to shoot it at. Racism isn't just for race, If you speak Japanese to a Asian looking person that is racism and stereotyping.

Not to mention just plain stupid.
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(1 Reply)
:icondazedjahkari:
DazedJahkari Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012
But... but circlejerk, Kazz! They need to know the internet knows they aren't like that, because fuck you and your feelings, only theirs matters!

There's a reason I don't and never will identify as a brony (or whatever the female one is- pegasister?), and I say that as someone who's seriously entertaining a Cadence cosplay and already has cosplayed Fluttershy. The less I know of the fandom, the better, because it's one that actively offends me more often than not. The whole mindset of 'I'm a brony but I didn't do that so I don't care about it nbd don't judge me like them' is one of the offenses, because, no, if you're part of a fandom and that fandom does rampant shit, you NEED to call them out on it, you NEED to acknowledge it, because as a member of that fandom YOU have a voice and it will only be via within-the-fandom pressure that things change.

Everyone knows not all bronies/pegasisters are like that, because everyone recognizes the fact that people are different on a case-by-case basis. Rather than loudly declaring the fact that you're different, analyze WHY everyone thinks your fandom is like that and work to change it from within. EVERYONE will be happier for it. :/

Also, re: rape jokes. Nope, never funny, because you are trivializing the most traumatic experience many people will ever go through for a cheap laugh. You are making a VICTIM the butt of your joke. They're not a fucking thing like dead baby or Holocaust jokes, but if you want to make that comparison let's go like this: you wouldn't tell a dead baby joke to someone you know has had a miscarriage, and you wouldn't tell a Holocaust joke to a Holocaust survivor or someone you know was personally impacted by it, so the logic goes you wouldn't tell a rape joke to a person that has been raped. HOWEVER. You have no fucking way of knowing if someone has had a miscarriage, or been impacted by the Holocaust, or raped. The first two are far less likely in terms of random chance encounter, but 1/4 women in the United States have been raped. Odds are, SOMEONE hearing your 'joke' has been impacted by sexual assault or rape, and congrats, buddy! In the name of humor you just forced that person to relive that trauma. If your precious joke is more important to you than that, well, you disgust me. -thumbsup-

(This comment is less at you, Kazzmon, as I think it strays into preaching-to-the-choir status, and more for the people leaving comments that don't get it.)
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Let me just say that this comment is one of the reasons I love you. Seriously. This. all of this.
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:icondazedjahkari:
DazedJahkari Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012
And the fact that you make journals like this that in part reach the fandom you're calling out is one of the reasons I love you. I think we could all stand to be a bit more self-aware of our fandoms because they all go dark places sometimes... except the Protomen fandom, I've yet to encounter anything bad in that one. -shrug-
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:iconconnexe:
connexe Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
"rape" jokes? Like what?
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Threatening to rape people. Making light of rape, or making it to be anything but an act of aggression against another human being. Wishing rape upon other people because they don't agree with their opinions.
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:iconconnexe:
connexe Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
That does not really sound like a joke at all, does it?
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
P. much
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:iconwatchmanj:
WatchmanJ Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
>They're offended that they're not getting recognition for "not all being like that".

AFAICT, most of said people (who are themselves a minority, most just being indifferent to the entire thing) are upset that other people are slandering them based on what someone else did. It's not "I want recognition for being normal, don't pay attention to them, pay attention to me", it's "You should stop calling me names because of what that asshole did, that's unfair".

Disclaimer: I'm preferring to stand on the sidelines and laugh at both parties in this case. Seriously everybody involved in this needs to step back and think about what exactly they're doing.
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
They're voluntarily associating themselves with this behavior, and not doing a thing to indicate that they think what the other fans are doing is wrong. If a fan has done nothing wrong? Then the posts calling terrible bronies out is not about him. People shouldn't have to offer a disclaimer about "I KNOW NOT ALL FANS ARE LIKE THIS" when they're being frustrated with some fans.
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:iconwatchmanj:
WatchmanJ Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
>They're voluntarily associating themselves with this behavior

I don't really want to write a reply and turn out to have had the wrong idea, so could you elaborate? Do you mean that people associate by being part of the MLP fandom, or because they were at the cons? Is this post about everyone in general or just people who let other people at the con shout rude remarks? The problem is that this post is very opaque and has the intent to offend and shame, a very bad combination. I'll show you:

>If a fan has done nothing wrong? Then the posts calling terrible bronies out is not about him.

The problem occurs when it stops saying to people that "there are terrible bronies" and starts saying to them that "bronies are terrible". For example, your post says "Racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia run rampant in the fandom". This could very easily be taken the wrong way by someone who will interpret it as saying "Everybody in the fandom is racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic", and since like you say they associate themselves with the fandom will get very upset because they now think that you're accusing them of being racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic. "Not everybody is like that" is basically code for "I'm (and possibly "and the people I know are") not like that". You them take their comment and interpret it as apologetics. This kind of thing is very easy to do when you're attacking something, unless you're very clear about what you're attacking. Which brings us to this:

>People shouldn't have to offer a disclaimer about "I KNOW NOT ALL FANS ARE LIKE THIS" when they're being frustrated with some fans.

It's not so much that you have to offer a disclaimer saying "I know not all fans are like this" as that you should make disclaimers making it clear who you are and aren't attacking.

In the same way that you consider that you shouldn't have to say "I know not all fans are like this" (Which I agree with, by the way, because as I said above you should make it clear who you're actually talking about), so to do many people consider that they shouldn't have to say "I think that the action that the other fan at the con did was wrong".

At least, this is the way I see it. But if this is, in fact, just about people who stood by and let abuse occur in front of them then I agree with everything you said (minus the veiled insult in "cis white straight male", which really wasn't needed). But you should make that much clearer because that possibility only occurred to me as I was about to post this comment.
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:iconbarghestmon:
Barghestmon Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012
Think of it this way, with the bully thing- if someone gets beaten up, and the bystanders who could have helped save the person being beaten up and hurt, but didn't then they are JUST as at fault as the bully. Sweeping incidents under the rug, trying to ignore them and act like they didn't happen, claiming them to be rumours... AKA "washing your hands of it because it doesn't personally involve you, as an individual" doesn't make it right, and doesn't stop this from happening.

I like MLP, but the fandom is an utter DISGRACE that makes me ashamed to know people exist where they make rape "jokes" at little girls. Wether you like it or not, that behavior is not okay. He shouldn't need to write a disclaimer at who this is about- people should know. I don't feel offended in the slightest at him calling bronies out-- they DESERVE a wake-up call. I am offended by the fact this behaviour exists when it shouldn't. Not in a fandom for a show meant for innocent children. That's the real problem. It's people choosing to be offended more over how the fandom is being presented then what is going on inside it-- and people's safety and well-being is top priority over some silly reputation. I hope this helps.
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:iconwatchmanj:
WatchmanJ Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Sorry, I didn't see this. I'll address what you say:

>Think of it this way, with the bully thing- if someone gets beaten up, and the bystanders who could have helped save the person being beaten up and hurt, but didn't then they are JUST as at fault as the bully.

I agree. It's happened before that I've been attacked and there were plenty of people around who could have stopped it but didn't. So if this was saying "The people at EFNW who saw people said horrible remarks and just stood by and did nothing are bad" then nobody would have an issue with it. But if you make it more vague and say "The people at EFNW are bad" then all of a sudden you're insulting people who didn't see people say horrible remarks (and therefore couldn't stop it). They might comment that "I didn't see anything of the sort, and could you stop insulting me for not stopping something I didn't see". In this case, it's gone even more vague. It's saying "The entire fandom is bad". So it's insulting a lot of people who just don't apply to the criteria, and then complaining when the people who get offended by the baseless insulting of themselves get offended.

>Sweeping incidents under the rug, trying to ignore them and act like they didn't happen, claiming them to be rumours... AKA "washing your hands of it because it doesn't personally involve you, as an individual" doesn't make it right, and doesn't stop this from happening.

Well, we'll take myself as an example here. I know that apparently someone made a rape joke at some point towards a CMC VA. What am I supposed to do about it? I live 6000 miles away from where it happened, don't know anything about the people who did it, or even know if it's actually true. Even so, I'm not making my first journal entry something about this not because it doesn't involve me. I'm not doing that because nothing I do will actually achieve any result other than talking to myself. I'm basically a magikarp, and so is pretty much everyone else.

>I like MLP, but the fandom is an utter DISGRACE that makes me ashamed to know people exist where they make rape "jokes" at little girls. Wether you like it or not, that behavior is not okay. He shouldn't need to write a disclaimer at who this is about- people should know.

What people *should know* is a red herring; it's all about what people *do know*. For example, I think that people should know basic computer maintenance so I don't have to waste my time doing it, but the reality is that most people don't even know what the control panel is. I'd have a pretty miserable time all around if I was getting mad because people don't know something they should about any topic.

>I don't feel offended in the slightest at him calling bronies out-- they DESERVE a wake-up call...>...and people's safety and well-being is top priority over some silly reputation.

Again, it seems that the end goal has been envisioned before the method here. He isn't calling bronies out, he's claiming they're something they're probably not and then insulting them for it. He could have railed against staff members, or people who saw yet stayed silent at EFNW.

But he didn't, because he's biased against "99% of MLP:FiM fans". Hell, I'm probably counted amongst that 99% because I didn't immediately agree with him. But I can't just do that. It's my duty to myself to apply Rationalist theory to my life in all manners, even when I might want to give into emotion (which I do. I don't like this situation at all!).

As well as this, you're basically saying that if someone is offended because their reputation is being tarnished, then they can't be offended over what's going on. I probably already wrote this up there, but I don't think it's about how much offence you have, it's about how possible and reasonable it is to try and shut down the offensive thing. From my point of view, someone calling people names for 'not taking action against ignorance' is exactly as bad as someone calling people names for 'being different'... and it's a lot easier to complain about something when you're actually given the opportunity to speak up.
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:iconbarghestmon:
Barghestmon Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012
>As well as this, you're basically saying that if someone is offended because their reputation is being tarnished, then they can't be offended over what's going on.

But it's not your personal reputation, is it? It's the reputation of white, straight male fans, the vocal side of the fandom. If it was your personal reputation then it would be aimed solely at you. It's still more important to address that Bronies, as it stands, are more upset that they've been called out on horrific behaviour and the fandom reputation than the safety of the people, especially the children within it. They have to put aside their "pride" and consider what they are doing is wrong.

Even though you live 6000 miles away, with me myself in another country, doesn't make this any more acceptable. The general bronies (of which are white, straight and male) are not used to people not giving them hugs and cookies for this horrendous behaviour. Sometimes it feels more like those bronies are offended that how dare people not find rape jokes, sexism, racism or bullying 'funny'. It's not, never was, and never will be funny. White, straight males are not oppressed like the people they make jokes at the expense of: black people, asian people, muslim people, women, people who fall outside of the male/female gender binary, people with sexualities that aren't straight. All of these are treated as "fair game" because to the straight, white male, these minorities/other people who aren't them are seen as 'fair game' when that isn't right. I live far from those brony conventions but I still refuse to accept or hold my tongue on issues where people are getting hurt, and the fact that people there do hold their tongues and try to ignore it shows severe problems which need addressing. And that means bringing it to the attention of everyone.

I think he is right to say 'the EFNW' are bad. I think you're looking too beyond there. We KNOW not every single MLP fan in existance isn't bad nor did the entire fandom across every spectrum appear in that room. But it's not just the fault of the staff, but it should be common sense and in human decency to call out and stop these people from doing this. If bronies/fans care so much about their fandom reputation and how people perceive them, they should stop doing horrible shit that warrants journals calling them out and expecting to be praised. Again, remember that the true demographic is not the white, straight males, it's the small, vulnerable children they're trampling on at these cons.

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:iconwatchmanj:
WatchmanJ Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Sorry this is taking me a while to respond, someone has requested a very difficult picture that I'm trying to do.

>But it's not your personal reputation, is it? It's the reputation of white, straight male fans, the vocal side of the fandom.

I think that what it is what it actually is and what it feels like it aren't always the same. And you have to remember that if you're a white straight male, then an attack on white straight males can very easily feel like a personal attack aimed solely at you.

>It's still more important to address that Bronies, as it stands, are more upset that they've been called out on horrific behaviour and the fandom reputation than the safety of the people, especially the children within it. They have to put aside their "pride" and consider what they are doing is wrong.

I think what it is is that most Bronies simply have more opportunity to speak out against the "calling out" than they do against homophobia etc at conventions. The fandom isn't a hive mind and it's not really reasonable to measure how upset people are by something based on numbers of people speaking out against something on a blog post. It's very easy to comment on a blog post and give your opinion.

>Even though you live 6000 miles away, with me myself in another country, doesn't make this any more acceptable. The general bronies (of which are white, straight and male) are not used to people not giving them hugs and cookies for this horrendous behaviour. Sometimes it feels more like those bronies are offended that how dare people not find rape jokes, sexism, racism or bullying 'funny'. It's not, never was, and never will be funny. White, straight males are not oppressed like the people they make jokes at the expense of: black people, asian people, muslim people, women, people who fall outside of the male/female gender binary, people with sexualities that aren't straight. All of these are treated as "fair game" because to the straight, white male, these minorities/other people who aren't them are seen as 'fair game' when that isn't right. I live far from those brony conventions but I still refuse to accept or hold my tongue on issues where people are getting hurt, and the fact that people there do hold their tongues and try to ignore it shows severe problems which need addressing. And that means bringing it to the attention of everyone.

The point of me mentioning how far away I live wasn't an attempt to legitimise the actions that happened, and accusations like that are what tend to get people's backs up and cause the complaints that are now being complained about. It's not hard to assume good faith when you're talking with someone, and I want you to try that. The reason I mentioned that was to illustrate the futility of me, personally, going out and "doing something about it". It's not that it doesn't involve me, or my country, or my culture. It's that even if I did involve myself, nothing would come about as a result of it except maybe some more drama and/or circlejerking. I hate drama and circlejerking.

Anyway, I fall under one of the types of people on that list. So I already know that people like to make jokes aimed at people like me, and I'm reasonably certain that I'm not 'privileged cis scum' or whatever. But as far as I'm concerned, jokes are all they are. I can laugh at myself, and I think that anyone who can't should be the ones given 'wake ups'. If I ever saw pointless bullying at EFNW 2013 (Which I'm saving up to go to), then sure I'd try to stop it. Upsetting and bullying people like that is stupid. But if I was walking down the hall and two friends, or even strangers, were having banter? That's not at all the same. I don't think people's rights should end where my feelings begin. If anyone did go to far, I'd like them to apologise to me of course. But I'd never want them to be put in a situation where they're *not allowed* to say things that might hurt my feelings.

>I think he is right to say 'the EFNW' are bad. I think you're looking too beyond there. We KNOW not every single MLP fan in existance isn't bad nor did the entire fandom across every spectrum appear in that room. But it's not just the fault of the staff, but it should be common sense and in human decency to call out and stop these people from doing this.

(Did you mean 'is bad'?)

But again, what if you didn't actually see this happening? Are you a bad person because you could potentially have found something but didn't? I just don't get it. I'm just trying to go through the thought process of some random forum browser who stumbles across this blog or one like it, I'm actually on neither side. What did people actually do? I googled and couldn't find anyone saying exactly what happened, just 'people were transphobic'.

>If bronies/fans care so much about their fandom reputation and how people perceive them, they should stop doing horrible shit that warrants journals calling them out and expecting to be praised.

This is what I mean. Of course I'd like my fandom to have a good reputation. But I haven't done anything like that. Who is "they"? Why do "they" get to represent me? Can I join "they"? I don't think that They exist. It's just individuals. Some people are bigots towards me. Most aren't.

Also, I have a horrific OCD-like desire to *always* reply to posts quoting me no matter what and I really really need to work on this picture; I'll give you a snails if we can agree to disagree here and go about our business.
deviantART muro drawing Comment Drawing
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:iconglitchgoat:
glitchgoat Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
If you're going to be part of the fandom, and refuse to call people out for being terrible, you're voluntarily associating with it. And good, I should be shaming them, because if they're going to sit around and piss and moan about how they're being mistreated because they're not getting ass-pats, they deserve to get a dose of shame.

I call them out for this because they are ignoring the facts of what happens in order to bring the attention onto themselves. If a bully beats up a kid, we don't go out and congratulate everyone else because they didn't take part in it-- we focus on the bully. The focus isn't about the people that don't take part in it, and if they insist on making themselves the center of attention, they're probably not the kind of person I really care for.

This is about people who sit by in the fandom, in general, and let this happen-- and then just whine about how they're not getting appreciation for not doing it. Because damn does it happen a lot.

Also, "Cis white straight male" is not in any way an insult, just as "trans black lesbian female" isn't an insult. It's a series of designators, and it's one of the most privileged sections of people-- and most terrible bronies I've met have been of such a sort.
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:iconwatchmanj:
WatchmanJ Featured By Owner Aug 22, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
>If you're going to be part of the fandom, and refuse to call people out for being terrible, you're voluntarily associating with it.

I disagree with this. Your opinion seems to be "If you're not with us, you're against us", which is a false dichotomy. It omits the option that can be taken when one doesn't care for either side in a debate and withdraws entirely instead of choosing sides. If there actually was a side of people who are saying "The racists are correct", then they could say that I am, right now, entirely on your side and against them with as much validity as you saying that I am on their side and against yours.

>And good, I should be shaming them, because if they're going to sit around and piss and moan about how they're being mistreated because they're not getting ass-pats, they deserve to get a dose of shame.

"Being denigrated" and "Not getting praised" are different things. Nobody is complaining because they're not being praised. They're complaining because you come across as having a hostile attitude towards them. By the way, do you apply this thinking to every facet? I imagine you'd be shocked and offended if somebody came onto here and said "Gay people deserve to be belittled, because all they do is complain when people belittle them". But this is the same logic!

>If a bully beats up a kid, we don't go out and congratulate everyone else because they didn't take part in it

No, we don't... We do congratulate people who stop it at the time, though. Anyway, neither do we get angry that every student in the entire school hasn't publicly decried and condemned the bully beating up the kid. Most kids won't care because they, and everybody they know, aren't in the same class, don't even know any of the people involved and have nobody to actually say it to.

>This is about people who sit by in the fandom, in general, and let this happen-- and then just whine about how they're not getting appreciation for not doing it

I explained in the previous comment your mistake here: They're not complaining (sorry) about not getting appreciation for not doing it, they're complaining because they've just read a post that seems to be attacking them for something they didn't actually do. But this doesn't account for the entire fandom. The outer fandom (as in, the people who basically just like the show) don't care at all because it's irrelevant to their lives, and the core fandom (as in the active parts of community) is very splintered so most people aren't even aware or will never see such things. What you see as a groupthink decision to "let these things happen" is actually just people going about their lives without ever coming across this stuff.

>Also, "Cis white straight male" is not in any way an insult, just as "trans black lesbian female" isn't an insult.

Most titles are series of designators. I think you're just being obtuse here. If I wanted to use the words "trans black lesbian female" as an insult, I could do so very easily. Here's an example: "No you know what, I dislike Tumblr. It's full of absolutely nothing but trans black lesbians". You used the phrase "X is for Cis white straight males" in a negative fashion, so it was an insult towards Cis white straight males.
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